My thoughts exactly.  Well, almost exactly.  good work.  Let the shit flinging commence.

To use 911, police, and military in this argument is flawed.  The 911 and police are managed by local govt. not federal.  Big difference.  Local govts manage based on their regional needs.  It is not a federally run system.

The military is run very well.  The VA hospitals and medical care are not.

The military is run well because it has clear operating procedures by military personnel with clear expectations of the desired outcome.

The VA medical system is run by the federal govt. bureaucrats. 

There are many other less expensive options with bigger returns than creating govt. health care system.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

We do have the best health system in the world, but in keeping within the parameters of reality... we do have to accept that it is still imperfect! I do think we need an overhaul in certain sects, but a total Government owned reform, as is being proposed, is not the answer. 

Rob, you know who I am. You know how I think as well. I reside in a realm of common sense, though it can be best said that such a realm is more of a mythical place these days. I am a free thinker.  As a free thinker I choose to ponder the questions being posed these days as a patriot/ parent who is concerned with the futuristic outcome of all finalization for my family, and ultimately for all human kind.  I am a firm believer in majority rules, as I have not witnessed thus far, the majority to be completely incompetent within thought.  You see, the majority of people are capable of knowing left from right, up from down, black from white, and last but not least... RIGHT from WRONG! 

To save the inevitable argument of which I see coming... "what about those that are medically deemed as clinically insane and or mentally unfit to stand trial, much less able to click within the norms of society." I offer this... The majority of these folks are also able to decipher the end results of their actions within the realm of right and wrong. If I were wrong in this opinion, I am sure that the majority of these folks would not commemorate their doings by either killing or attempting to kill themselves, much less attempt all the running and hiding to further their innocence in their actions having been executed. In the long and short, I believe that certain extensions of the Government have granted such tools this EXCUSE... it's why things of  such nature occur beyond an alarming rate (there is no longer a stiff penalty to pay)!!!

It is very apparent to me, that the more involved our Government is in our daily doings, the more excuses we automatically become afforded.  Keeping in mind that it is easier to bitch, moan and complain (and wait for someone else to hopefully fix our shit for us)... than it is to roll up our sleeves and do it ourselves... no wonder so many people of today are such a big fan of the idea of big "G's" aid.  In a perfect world it would be wonderful to awaken in the morning and have everything (within desire) be as just. At night, to sleep without a heavy or worrisome mind would be fantastic.  To know that whatever the situation, your Gov't. has your best interests in mind 24/7 would be bliss. However, I'm a realist and this notion (a governmental promise) is better displayed within the text of the Bible (Heaven's offerings) than it is at a random town hall meeting.  It's impossible to fund a perfect or, at the very least, a highly ideal way of life for every last person... all for their "just being in existence."

A person has to work in order to achieve!  The sad current truth of that last notion is this... "Our Gov't needs a person's hard work in order to fund its random ideals of taking from the haves to give to the have nots." I just wish people would eyeball the truth here... the have nots aren't boasting anything bigger in their lives other than population numbers... the haves are being forcefully downgraded to the have nots' position because the Government deems it fair!

I don't know what the answer is.  I'm sure, that you Rob, would tell me that my conservative beliefs aren't the answer... just as I currently believe that your regime of a "New Hope" has fell off the launch pad long before the countdown commenced.  I feel that across the Country, people are right now speaking loudly on items that they may honestly believe to be personally important in what they may feel could be the Country's 11th hour!

People don't want to be told that they should suffer (higher taxes) for the Country's agenda of selling out their brother's and sister's souls for many generations in order to fatten wallets and strengthen its Progressive initiatives... Nor do people want to be told that higher taxes will not be impressed upon them when the finality of it is, that higher taxation to cover the Government's financial blunders cannot be avoided. People are tired of being lied to by both Republicans and Democrats.  Neither side seems to get it.  When people speak up, the people are told they are defiantly ignorant or unaffectionate to the idea of what is deemed best for their own good.  When people speak up, they are told that their rights and their opinions will be tied up in court because of what is best for "their" personal freedoms (obviously these freedoms do not belong to the American citizens) in the eyes of a lone/ biased judge and or cause. People are tired of being lied too.  I'm sure you are one of these people Rob, which is why you feel that this current way of doing things "MUST WORK"! It has to right? The current administration has to have our best interests in high regard because they have promised to fix the "years... and... years" of "the American Narcissism" that has lead us to our current situation.

Our President apologizes to every Country other than his own.  He promises to improve every relationship with every other Country other than his own.  He apologizes to foreign countries for concerns with previous foreign affairs... but where is the APOLOGY to us, for years of service as the ground exploring, constitution writing, tax paying, blood shedding, Government ass wiping shit paper Americans that carry the guilt for providence rendered? He was supposed to bridge the gap.  Not for us and Islam... Or us and Venezuela, Cuba, Mexico, etc... He was supposed to fix our shit!  The problem I see is this,  " There is more of a financial profit in coveting to the dysfunctional assholes of the world that lend no cure to the cause, than there is in protecting the people with common sensical causes.  Bottom line, a defense attorney is awarded finer revenues for disproving a killer's intent than that of a prosecutor who tries to persuade people that his dead client in fact had a right to live.

Nothing is perfect.  In ideal form or in an executed action.  Things can and will be flawed on a time to time basis.  The Constitution, though considered to be tirelessly thought through, is not perfect... Nothing is perfect! Though it is written knowledge that the writers of the Constitution labored extensively to ensure that their ideals made absolutely clear the need for checks and balances that would never slight the people, nor empower the Government as is fashioned in our present time (though our school text books will never tell that truth) .  That is why the original idea was to engage and involve the masses to vote in a sense to hammer through a sensical objective via a voting system... hence exercising the "majority" rule. I'm not naive enough to suggest that there were no hidden agendas when things were originally written... Its in man's nature to fuck over his better and or lesser half for personal gain.  What I do assume is that either way, things were written in order to avoid monarchial type control and to enjoy "certain within means" types of freedom... only, it seems we are now back to where we started... or at least on the level, with those of whom we fervently tried to never become.

Yadda, yadda, yadda... I have a hard time believing elected officials in this day and age of posh lifestyles and trendy political incomes hold our best interests in higher regards than their own "as it was intended to be."  I don't like the fact that we are lead to believe that they feel our kid's future and well being to be even with that of their own seed.  I think that this Country has become entirely too beholden on those who once may have sought simple profit, but now hold the actual lien note on our future.  We have been sold out and are seemingly intrigued by the political layout, clout and self empowering leadership of Countries who once thought of us as the world's best laid example of bottom to top accomplishment.  Make no mistake, I love my Country... however, I believe those we have entrusted the rightful duties in accordance with our best interest, have treated our American value with less regard than the common stow away who has historically been thrown from the train for the very acts of common disobedience our Government would have some of us to believe we are entitled too and others forsaken for these days (double standardism).

Rob, I do not expect you to understand the common man's strife, which is weird because I know you are nothing more or less than a COMMON MAN! I do not know why you stand for these ideals, or rather, what you may expect to gain by avoiding the obvious.  You are seemingly, through our talk as friends, as well as, your internet posts a man with as clueless a cause as John Wilkes Booth.  I don't want to mislead people by labeling you a cowardly "wannabe southerner" with a history will know me mentality. But, the comparisons would suggest you hold a voice without a specific cause... not shared by the majority... or of moral thought! You take sides with so many people and their individual agendas that I can't even begin to understand why.

You are for abortion!

You are for Homosexual marriage!

You think Governmental programs are the answer for the convicted, the poor, the alienated, and the minority (numerically speaking)!

You believe, "In God we trust" has no true meaning, neither spiritually, guidance wise, or religiously, other than to further the Christian agenda!

You believe Muslim radicals should not be punished due to the fact that they are raised to act in accordance with their radical faith!

I can only assume that you too believe that this current bailout was A GOOD IDEA to spur an actual capitalist economy that you are entirely not supportive of (hard to spur such a thing with a progressive agenda in mind).

Here you are tooting the horn for Governmental lead healthcare.  Lobby whatever rhetoric you can summon... the agenda is there!  As it is with education reform...

It will never end. This idiotic shit was paid heed to in Woodrow Wilson's day... long ago! While it sickens me, I am amused by the persistency of these "Progressive" American cripplers.

You are clearly not for "True Americanism"... or Freedom as it was meant to be my friend!       

    

    

The problem with our elected officials is that many of them have the interests of entities with huge bank accounts rather than the interests of the people at large. This is why the issue of health care reform has been so confused. Health insurance companies have spent a lot of money to confuse the issue and convince us that what they have now is the best. That's what big companies do, spend a lot of money to convince us they have what we need.  But it's all false.

No, Heath. I wasn't being serious when I said we have the best health care system.  It was sarcasm.  In fact, there are about 30 countries that have better health care systems and most of them are ran by their respective governments.  It is completely immoral to leave our health care system in the hands of profit driven industry, as I was trying to demonstrate.  The well being of the people (or lack thereof) should never be a something to profit from.

I can't go along with this notion that our government can't be trusted to run things.  We trust it to run wars, send people into space, protect us from foreign threats, educate our children, protect us from crime and natural disaster. Why can't we trust the government with our health care.  I'm inclined to believe that any system would be better than it is now, and anyone's hands is more trustworthy than the health insurance industry.

The problem with our elected officials is that many of them have the interests of entities with huge bank accounts rather than the interests of the people at large.

You are absolutely correct with this statement. So in knowing this, why do you seem to be at the very least, a little supportive of their many idiotic initiatives? Why do you in your posts, appear to champion their cause? The current line up at the Capitol building (as well as many of their predecessors) have done nothing to improve our situation. They have spent their efforts trying to amass more Governmental control than seems necessary. Auto industry bail outs, bank bail outs, insurance company bail outs, home loan bail outs, etc... and none of it has worked (at least not in our favor). Was it ever supposed to work? Or was it all done in an effort to achieve more power by now holding businesses (both the big and more so the small) over the barrel and making them even more beholden to the machine of Government. It has become a trickle down effect that has hurt the common man more than these folks care to acknowledge! 

In fact, there are about 30 countries that have better health care systems and most of them are ran by their respective governments.

Then why do people of foreign countries (especially of the important variety) seek American treatment so often?

Now for the sake of argument, and supposing you're somewhat accurate in your claim, could it be due to some of the following instances?

The fact that they do not carry around the same amount of fat (meaning both the leeches and the non contributors we are so in love with in this Country) on their waist lines as we do. Illegal immigrants, prisoners, welfare junkies, drug addicts, etc... tend to get better health care than those of us that pay into a healthcare plan. I'm sure that these people are not catered to in a similar fashion in other countries.

Could it be that people in other countries may see a need to better take care of their health than we do here? That theory would give them at least a statistical edge I think.

Or the fact that they may not be accustomed to the same social norms (that usually lead to a heightened sense of self conscious, or awareness) meaning fewer medical claims that would offer another statistical advantage.

Bottom line is, some of these Governments you speak of are not as over burdened as it appears ours wants to be... At least that would be my assumption. If in fact their health care rocks, I'm sure it has something to do with some other program taking it in the shorts somewhere.

It is completely immoral to leave our health care system in the hands of profit driven industry... The well being of the people (or lack thereof) should never be something to profit from.

As I believe it to be completely immoral to leave our health care system in the hands of a profit driven Government... which is what we now have!

A person's well being or lack thereof is what this Government has been profiting from for quite some time now! This idea in general is why people are so pissed off!

There are many, many reasons why we should not trust the Government on this issue, as well as the other issues you mentioned... war, space exploration, foreign threats, education, crime, disaster, etc...

The reasons WHY, are tirelessly unending!

Look, friend. People need to quit waiting around for someone to scratch their backs, or grease their palms, or comfort them with bullshit anecdotes all at a low cost of FREE! Nothing is free, everything has a price! If you are not paying the fee, someone else is picked to burden it for you... this is not fair!

We were warned many years ago to stay out of foreign affairs (lest their affairs become our own burden). We were taught long ago to educate ourselves, so that we may not be easily moved by the tongue of snakes. It was common practice to respect your fellow man, and he you. The power to question the Government was afforded us by those who wrote its existence, and now in its manipulated form... Our Government would rather us shut up and quit shoving against its agenda?

When does it end?  

Dobbler!!!! WELL SAID!!!!!

I hope to see more post from you!

 

You are absolutely correct with this statement. So in knowing this, why do you seem to be at the very least, a little supportive of their many idiotic initiatives?

Yea, no. The causes I support aren't the ones I speak of. The ones I speak of are those who are, at the will of the health insurance and pharmaceudical companies, doing everything they can to try kill health care reform.  These are the ones who have don't have the real interest of the people.  They know our health care system is shitty, but because they are supported by these companies they act as political hitmen to kill any and all reform.

Then why do people of foreign countries (especially of the important variety) seek American treatment so often?

Yeah, I'm sorry, but that's complete and utter bullshit pulled straight out the ass of the health insurance industry.  There are far more examples of people from other countries who are afraid to set foot in this country because if they happen to get hurt they'll have to deal with our shitty health care system.  No system is prefect and I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find some guy in France that got jerked around, but that is only an exception.  Jesus Christ, Heath. I'm telling you, you gotta stop listening to that idiocy that comes out of AM radio. It's all bullshit.

And yeah, they're healthier than we are.  Maybe because they have a better health care system that focuses on preventative care as well as treating ailments.

As I believe it to be completely immoral to leave our health care system in the hands of a profit driven Government... which is what we now have!

I believe what you are speaking of is the very people who have those with money in their interests, politicians that would rather protect the bottom line of company profits rather than the health wellfare of the American people, otherwise you lost me. Our govt is anything from profitable right now.  And our health care system is among the most wasteful in the world.  That's why we're trying to change things.

Look, friend. People need to quit waiting around for someone to scratch their backs, or grease their palms, or comfort them with bullshit anecdotes all at a low cost of FREE! Nothing is free, everything has a price! If you are not paying the fee, someone else is picked to burden it for you... this is not fair!

Here's the thing, okay.  This is how our health care system works.  People who can't afford insurance still need to be treated so they go to a hospital who has no choice but to do something.  Since the person being treated can't pay, that cost is made up with higher expenses charged to the insurance companies, who pass those expenses along to you and me, people who pay insurance premiums.  You haven't noticed that premiums more than doubled in the last 10 years?  If this continues, not only will people like you and me not be able to afford coverage, but more and more business will not be able to afford to provide the coverage to their employees.  We are already picking up the burdon.  This is the main reason why our system utterly sucks and needs to be changed.

And if you believe it, like I tried to demonstrate in this blog, than why don't you feel that our other services should be under a similar system?  Why are we paying the burdon for everyone else's police protection, basic education, disaster protection, etc?  Because maybe it's fair that everyone should have access to those things, no matter what their income level?  Why is it different with health care?

Yea, no. The causes I support aren't the ones I speak of. The ones I speak of are those who are, at the will of the health insurance and pharmaceudical companies, doing everything they can to try kill health care reform.  These are the ones who have don't have the real interest of the people.  They know our health care system is shitty, but because they are supported by these companies they act as political hitmen to kill any and all reform. 

Sorry bro, I guess I'm too stupid and or drunk right now to follow your gist here.

There are far more examples of people from other countries who are afraid to set foot in this country because if they happen to get hurt they'll have to deal with our shitty health care system.  No system is prefect and I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find some guy in France that got jerked around, but that is only an exception.  Jesus Christ, Heath. I'm telling you, you gotta stop listening to that idiocy that comes out of AM radio. It's all bullshit.

I know damn well that there are tons of examples. I hear tons of examples everyday from people who have the same feeling about foreign health care... Only now they are referred to as defects, (excuse me... U.S. citizens) by the appointed heads of these same foreign countries... and in the rare case, I find my ears sort of off on a particular day, I can at least see the sort of health care advantages we do offer some folks willing to make the trip. We can go on and on with the comparisons here, and I will admit that shit does happens to people sometimes (usually more so to the good than the bad unfortunately) but when I see the better part of the whole frigging country drawing their line in the sand, I can't help but to at least "try to" understand their side of the story and see if they got a little leg to stand on regarding the issue(s) at hand. I agree 100% that no system is perfect (look at half of my written bullshit above) and furthermore, I for one won't be wasting my time scouring the landscapes both foreign and domestic in attempt to find a Frenchman who's feelings are hurt by any lack of an American offering! As far as radio or news shows go... I could really give a rats ass. The same can be said for bulletin boards, t.v. commercials, and PETA's sky writers. I tend to think, or at least assume, that I am competent enough to form my own opinion(s) about things in general (although digging up a little nugget of truth here and there does help) with no outside help. But honestly, I'm sure you feel the same of yourself and here we are agreeing to disagree yet once again!

Yeah, they're healthier than we are.  Maybe because they have a better health care system that focuses on preventative care as well as treating ailments.

I find more comfort in the fact that some people may just be plainly better educated and or less willing to be cool than us. Or, perhaps their freedoms don't permit such behavior. Who knows? We've already lost the right to trans-fats (something I'm surprised you and I both have not raised the roof over)... and who knows what is next? Maybe we should ask some random European what we have to look forward to.
Our govt is anything from profitable right now.  And our health care system is among the most wasteful in the world.  That's why we're trying to change things.   No, it's exactly why "they" are trying to change things! Believe me when I say that I personally don't believe there to be much profit left to be made on these great states, but who can blame them for trying right? They profit from us. They take these profits and pad their ideal utopia(s) without fixing a damn thing for the people! Look at California. We pay the most taxes, yet boast the worse financial results. We can't fix a frigging thing in this state and in all honesty we are the shittiest looking parcel of land on the national block. So you can honestly tell me they're not making a profit when all they do is take and take from our plates without offering even the slightest morsel in return? Come on man!   Here's the thing, okay.  This is how our health care system works.  People who can't afford insurance still need to be treated so they go to a hospital who has no choice but to do something.  Since the person being treated can't pay, that cost is made up with higher expenses charged to the insurance companies, who pass those expenses along to you and me, people who pay insurance premiums.  You haven't noticed that premiums more than doubled in the last 10 years?  If this continues, not only will people like you and me not be able to afford coverage, but more and more business will not be able to afford to provide the coverage to their employees.  We are already picking up the burdon.  This is the main reason why our system utterly sucks and needs to be changed.   I agree Rob. In fact, this is the best argument you have made. Only, a good percentage of these people know they won't be pressed to pay so no sweat off their sack right? This only feeds the fact that people are indeed good with receiving shit (as long as you and I are covering their bill) for free! Honestly, there are hundreds of reasons why costs rise. Greed is no doubt one of the biggest offenders here.   You have to take into consideration that doctors are forced to carry malpractice insurance deservedly so or not (thanks to millions of fraudulent claims that go forth uncontested).    The fact that people know they don't have to pay, would undoubtedly contribute in some fashion (as previously mentioned above).   I have too noticed that premiums have shot up, this is why I do agree to an extent that something needs to be addressed. It's already at a point that businesses cant carry the load for their employees... and  has been for sometime now (which is a pretty big contributor in the thousands of lay offs going around). We have shouldered the load for sometime now I agree. My thing is, it should be a simpler fix than actually financing a full fledged overhaul (that we cannot afford). You don't always have to remodel a whole house to straighten a door jamb.   And if you believe it, like I tried to demonstrate in this blog, than why don't you feel that our other services should be under a similar system?  Why are we paying the burdon for everyone else's police protection, basic education, disaster protection, etc?  Because maybe it's fair that everyone should have access to those things, no matter what their income level?  Why is it different with health care?    Why do we pay for these other services? Because the fucking Government can't pick up the tab for those services any easier, than they can sort through (much less adhere to) the demands of their blessed constituents (which appears to be pretty fucking trying on them to do)!     These bastards can't even fund their ideas in the trading in of supposed junk cars to help out the environment or our energy crises. Instead, they expect the auto industry to bail out their idea, after their having already bailed out the whole auto industry! WOW, my brain really hurts right now.   Our local and State Governments can hardly fund their many underachieving law enforcement agencies... and who are these institutions dependent upon? None other than "THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!"    Education? We don't even give our kids the truth to study, much less the tools in which it requires them to learn... Thank god for parents that actually give a shit... Not to mention "Education (at one time) was meant to be free".   The Constitution (and its amendments) was founded on the premise of inalienable rights (meaning, those that are imposed upon every individual at birth).  We used to know them well as "the right to life, liberty and property... um... excuse me... the pursuit of happiness".  With this in mind, it is implied that if one wants to build upon these rights they must have a desire to develop them. Instead, people have chosen to manipulate these rights into "equalities."  Our founders never intended to create the land of "the equal". As a matter of fact, they set forth to do quite the opposite. To build a country of free men (mankind), to destroy the cast system where the poor stay poor and the rich stay rich based on the family you are born into, and to provide equal opportunities to all that were motivated to revolutionize their lives.  Our country has amazing roots in all that is "right," and, if you want something... then work for it... and then work and work and work until you achieve your desired outcome damn it!.   Those who bust their asses to better their lives, do not deserve equal treatment in the company of sloths.  Conversely speaking, those who choose to do either nothing, not much, a little bit, enough to get by, and or simply to accept the excuses of their fathers, "DO" in fact have what is coming to them.   Why should things be equal?  Salaries are based on qualifications. Police protection is based on levels of poverty. Educational funding is based on property taxes (meaning schools receive more money per student depending on the value of their parents property)... sound equal?     "There is nothing more unequal, than the equal treatment of unequal people."  ~   Thomas Jefferson   "We pay because the Government CAN'T and too many of it's supposed citizens WON'T"!\ In the case(s) they say they can, I offer this...  "WELL, HERE WE ALL ARE BROTHER"!

 

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